Yamaha Senior Super Sportsman Class

[David Chong]

As many of you know from my posts about my journey into karting, my fundamental goal has been to enjoy local wheel-to-wheel racing by bringing in new blood through the lure of a relatively low price point. The season is underway, and so far I am pleased with the results: we have four brand-new Yamaha drivers in the club, who are committed to running for the championship. In addition, we have two more people who are strongly considering joining us, and another driver who already has equipment and will likely join us because of the level of participation that is now in the class.

Rather than declare mission accomplished, I am continually evaluating our progress towards our goals. A fundamental aspect of my efforts remains to keep costs low. By keeping this goal in sight, I maximize our chances of attracting new drivers, especially in light of the current economic climate. As my knowledge of karting has increased, I have learned that there are additional ways for us to reduce overall costs without significant impact to the racing or race-day procedures.

There are some very attractive savings offered by the Yamaha can exhaust classes. Initial costs are lower, as the Formula Y Pipe assemblies are three times the cost of the SSX cans. Ongoing costs, however, are where the primary savings are found. By running the KT100 at a lower peak RPM, the motors can last over twice as long, reducing motor rebuild frequency and the stress on all components. Tuning options, tech restrictions, and overall complexity are reduced with the elimination of the exhaust flex pipe, which is attractive for tech as well as for people new to karting. Finally, with a dry clutch option, maintenance tasks and fluid costs are also eliminated. A nice secondary benefit is that the superbox exhaust will have a lower Db level than the Y pipes, which is sensitive to our venue restrictions.

After discussing the issue with President Mike Nadeau, effective immediately our group will be re-classifying into a Superbox configuration based upon the IKF Super Sportsman class. By reducing the minimum weight, we should be able to gain back some of the speed we sacrifice with the exhaust change, minimizing impact to mixed-class races. The rules we will use are as follows:

SDKA Senior Super Sportsman Class
Age
16 and up

Motors
1. Yamaha 100cc KT-100S (new style “787” cylinder only)
2. RLV 7548 SSX Superbox Can Exhaust (4 hole @ 90 degrees)
3. Dry or Wet Engine Clutch Only, 2 or More Discs; No Direct Drive, No Axle Clutch

Weight/Specs
1. 340-lb. Total Weight
2. 55-1/8-inch Maximum Rear Width

Fuel
Spec fuel/oil mix: MS98 with Maxima 927 or Burris Hi-Rev Castor (driver’s option); eight (8) ounces oil per gallon of fuel

Tires
Maxxis HG3 or MH, Bridgestone YHC, Burris B55A or B44A;
Rear Option 6.0 or 7.10

Our group will be running all remaining SDKA events under this class, and we will present ourselves as a championship class under SDKA Policy 100.2(3)c. It is my hope that this change will strongly position the Yamaha Super Sportsman class as the SDKA's low-cost, low-complexity senior class suitable for both new racers and veterans alike. If anyone (especially Mike Campbell, as the only other current regular driver affected by the change) has additional input/suggestions on the class rules, please feel free to comment.

Regards,
David

Note: 4/27/09 corrected class weight to 340 per IKF rules.

[David Chong]

Already have had some excellent input via email, and I will be updating the original post to reflect the changes. This round, I'm changing the class title to Yamaha Senior Super Sportsman, which is the more accurate title of a 4-hole can class.

[mikecampbell]

Well, you guys do what you need to. I'll have to think on it. If I remember correctly the Superbox used the same clutch as Formula YC, the Sportsman class ( 3 hole can ) used the dry clutch. This may have changed, I'm sure you researched it. The Superbox class was probably the loudest and definitely the messiest class there was. Is this a local option class or an IKF class? I don't think the engine maintenance is any different between the two. Once again you do what you need to but keep in mind for the other possible new guys, what will they run as an entry level class if they weigh 180 plus? You're doing a great thing by bringing in new drivers. And as you said things are tough right now. When there were many drivers there were many class options. You guys are able to add weight, not that thats what you want, but you can. If you figure out where to put it, it's actually an advantage. The bigger guy just is what he is when he gets in! Anyway, I was happy to see the smiles at the race and was glad to help where I could.

[don howard]

While not sure any electronic forum is a good mechanism for a discussion (lots of one way statements, without a lot of interaction), I think you may be making a mistake if you do not listen to the advice Mike is giving you.

His points are valid - from the mess (most of us who ran the 4 hole Yamaha can even created diverters to keep the heat, oil and grit from destroying our bearings) to the power advantages of the pipe versus can. Further, as someone who has run both dry and wet clutches - in my experience, a four holer could destroy a dry clutch in a day. Not the kind of result you are looking for in keeping costs down.

In my opinion, the pipe/wet clutch combination is the better alternative for the Yamaha.

My suggestion would be to discuss this with some of the other drivers who have run similar equipment in a venue that fosters dialogue (maybe meet an hour early before the the next Board meeting in April). Broadcast the planned subject matter of the discussion and see if you can get some response. If not, then you will have to make do with input that is limited like mine, constrained by typing speed and spelling.

Be assured, we all want to support the goal of more racers at our events, so more people can share in the fun of karting.

[David Chong]

Thanks for taking the time to post, Don. I appreciate your investment of time and effort in helping us reach our goals. Rest assured, prior to taking the option to switch to our group, I had already had several hour-long discussions with a variety of people with much more experience than I have, and I've learned enough to know that we want to run the lower power combination. Like all of my decisions of this magnitude, this is a move based upon careful research and deliberate calculation. It's not something I read about on a random Internet forum and decided to just run with.

Just so that we can direct further discussion productively, let me be clear: we've asked for input on the new can package that we are going with, because we are going to run a can package. This thread is an announcement of our decision, and an invitation for input on the final rules for our can class based upon everyone's valuable experience. This is not a call for a vote from other people, who are not in our class, as to whether or not we should stick with Formula Y on our personal karts.

By the time the next board meeting comes up on the 8th, we will long since have purchased and installed the new packages for our karts, and likely spent a practice day up at Apex breaking them in. The 10 days between the board meeting and the race on the 19th are not enough time for us to hold our decision until then and feel adequately prepared to race. Therefore, we will not be holding off on finalizing the can class rules until we can chat with others at the board meeting. Having said that, I welcome input in any format, so if this forum doesn't work for anyone, please email me directly as others have, and if the phone works better send me your number and I'd be happy to call! We really do want to hear about other's experiences, which is what we draw from, and that's why I posted above that comments and advice are welcome.

The only point that Don and Mike both raised that I have not heard before is in regards to the mess. Perhaps a three hole can would be a better choice, then? Certainly, the uni-directional output out the back of the can would result in a more controllable mess. I had opted for the 4-hole because of the greater power output, but if it adds more heat and maintenance problems, we would gladly trade power for more ease of use.

The other points that have been raised are not as compelling.

• If the power is still too much for a dry clutch, then a wet clutch is better, and the above rules allow for either. Perhaps a 3-hole will be cleaner as well as a good match for a dry clutch. However, I am skeptical about this entire point since Horstman (for example) specifically lists Senior Sportsman and Jr. or Sr. SuperSportsman as the intended applications for its two-disc HDC-5 dry clutch. National championships have been won in those classes using the HDC-5.
  
• The power advantages of the Y pipe mean nothing to me; we'd rather have less power and more longevity.
  
• Regarding the weight, it seems like a person could weigh 195 lbs. and still be flirting with minimum weight if they run a 4-5 liter tank. Our driver who weighs 180 lbs. was running 25 lbs. of weight plus an 8 liter tank, and with the Y pipe he was 375 after the race. Lose 3 pounds from the exhaust conversion, 7 pounds from less fuel, and 25 lbs of lead, and suddenly he is at 340 lbs. Add 15 lbs. to the driver and you have a 195-lbs. driver making 355-lbs. race weight, which is safe for a 350 lbs. class. If the driver weighs more than that, perhaps another class is a better choice for that driver; we want to be accomodating but frankly we don't expect any one class to please everyone.
  

Again, Don and Mike, your point regarding mess and heat is very intriguing, and it carries important ramifications. I'd appreciate more information from you and others either here, by personal email, or by phone. I'll ask my other advisors, as well.

What's the power difference between the 3 hole and 4 hole designs? My impression is that there is a substantial difference, since the clubs I have seen that allow both exhausts in a combined Yamaha class make the SSX (4 hole) exhausts run with 60 lbs. more weight than the YBX (3 hole). That must equate to a lot of power. If we give up too much power, we will be harder to group with the HPV class because of the speed differential, and I am looking to have minimal impact on the race day.

There is a 4-hole SSX can with the holes spaced at 12 o'clock through 3 o'clock. Are those any cleaner?

Thanks,
David

[mikecampbell]

David, it's obvious you are planning to go through with this, although without the knowledge to have a thourough plan to do so. If you are planning on even being on the track with HPV with a 3 hole can, it's not going to happen. The Senior Sportsman class is probably the slowest class there is. Fun, yes, depending on your competition as in any other class. I will check on the times compairing Senior Super Sportsman to Formula YC, and if they are similar, as your proposal, then with the boards approval why not have a "combined class of Formula YC and Senior Superbox" scored as one class? I would be happy to attend the meeting regarding this subject and would hope others with experience of the classes would attend.

[David Chong]

Mar 15, 2009 20:18:39 GMT -8 mikecampbell said:

David, it's obvious you are planning to go through with this, although without the knowledge to have a thourough plan to do so.

Mike, the thorough plan to do so is posted above - perhaps you missed it in the first post. My subsequent mention of the 3 hole can was only to show that I'm open to discussion and open to being shown that there are better ways, if a better way does indeed exist. Mostly I thought I was illustrating the untenability of that option, which you have just confirmed by commenting on its low speeds and incompatability with HPV.

I have already considered and researched the 3 hole can and found it to be too slow. That is why I selected the 4-hole can for our class. Hopefully you see it posted above in the class description. See the connection? Research > Knowledge > Planning > Execution. However, you and Don brought up concerns about the mess, so I put it out there that if you have a better option, I'm open to hearing it. My apologies if my openness came across as indecision.

Please don't mistake my graceful invitation to discussion for ignorance or naivety. There's a reason my original post doesn't read, "Which is better, 3 hole or 4 hole?" I've already done the research and talked to people whose combined karting experience exceeds my years on this Earth by threefold. Still, out of courtesy and genuine desire to get it right, I welcome input. Input with compelling reasons for tweaks to the format are greatly appreciated. Input indirectly suggesting Horstman doesn't know what their clutches are good for, or that the thousands of karters who run can exhausts are ignorant for not running Y/C, is not as helpful.

I understand that people who currently run a Formula Y/C Heavy package would be reluctant to change to something else, especially in your case Mike, where your kart took the championship last year. Before all of this, I sent you a personal note and you're still welcome to contact me directly. It's natural and understandable that you'd wish to run the same thing again, and I regret the place this puts you in. But honestly, I'm really out to serve the greatest good for the karters I am responsible for, who happen to be 4/5ths of the Yamahas that have run in the SDKA this year. Thinking of it another way, without our group of four drivers, Formula Y is a single-kart class so far in 2009, so having us select a different class is no different to Formula Y than if we had not shown up at all. It makes a significant impact on the SDKA that we did show up, however, as we represented over 10 percent of the drivers in attendance last weekend.

Regarding combined classes, I would be happy to welcome all Yamaha motors in a variety of exhaust configurations with the proper weight compensation as a combined championship class. We've set the 4-hole weight based upon a reasonable average driver weight without going to a "sumo" class, so the other classes would have to scale off of that. That probably means 50-60 pounds light for a 3 hole can, and substantially heavier for a Formula Y. I doubt the weight required to handicap a Y pipe would result in a reasonable race weight. If you have any references to clubs successfully running a PAX-like class of KT100 packages, I'd be interested in reviewing the class structure. I have not seen any clubs combining pipes and cans into a single class, leading me to suspect it is not reasonable given the power differences.

Regards,
David

[Jeff Shadoan]

As someone who has raced multiple Yamaha configurations I think Senior Super Sportsman (4-hole) aka Superbox is great for a "budget" class. Sportsman (3-hole) would be even more affordable but is probably too slow for Qualcomm (although it was great fun at Moran when racing with Tri-C).

The concerns about a dry clutch used to be true; however, the relatively new Horstman HDC-5B (2-disk dry clutch) is made to be used in Super Sportsman applications. It is true the older dry clutches wouldn't or won't last on a Super Sportsman but the new HDC-5B is no problem. IKF even added this 2-disk dry clutch two years ago and the majority of drivers use them now (SoCal Sprinters and IKF Nationals). With the advancements in clutch technology and friction disk material this really is no longer much of a concern ... IF the correct dry clutch is used. As with any clutch (dry or wet) correct stall speed and clutch maintenance is very important. There is less maintenance required of the HDC-5B clutch than a wet clutch. Also, you don't want to sit on grid with the motor running very long or lug the kart around surging at slow speeds too long (applies to both dry and wet clutches).

Senior Super Sportsman is no longer run in IKF Region-7 (neither is HPV-3) but it remains an official IKF class and is still run at the IKF Nationals. Its already on the schedule for the 2009 Nationals.

As for mess. I ran both 4-hole and 3-hole Yamaha classes for 4-years and I wouldn't call them extremely messy. But I wouldn't recommend wearing a white or light colored driving suit because of the exhaust location. Although the new Molecule suit cleaner is awesome at cleaning these type of karting stains.

Rebuild frequency is less with a Yamaha 'can' compared to a Yamaha pipe motor (I wouldn't say twice as long ... but 50% or longer between rebuilds). This does equal a cost savings to the budget minded racer. 4-hole 'can' motors run at least 1,000 fewer rpm and this equates to less frequent rebuilds. This is true for any motor (the Leopard is a good example ... run it at 15,000 rpm and you greatly extend the time between rebuilds vs. running it at 16,000).

I'm not positive what a good Super Sportsman lap time will be at Qualcomm. From past experience it should be close in times to a Formula YC Heavy (due to the lower weight). The last year I raced mine with SDKA was at Cajon and Moran. When we combined with Formula YC Heavy my times were equal or faster. However, at Qualcomm I think the times could be just a touch slower in comparison due to the very long straights.

I weighed 170-175 lbs when I raced Senior Sportsman at 350 lbs and I needed around 8-10 lbs of lead to make weight with a full fuel tank.

I still have my Yamaha equipment and just may have to dust off the cob webs to pull double duty and race with you guys also. There's definitely a part of me that misses the Yamaha.

Come on Don ... Lets break out the old Yamahas for a race or two ;D

[don howard]

Jeff,

I would enjoy getting beat by you again in the Yamaha class. Never too old for another lesson.

The earliest I could get my stuff together, though, would probably be by the Northeast lot race in May. Which may be better anyway if we are going to be co-racing with Prokart in April.

I think it would be a kick.

Don

[DBkarting]

Since this topic is open discussion, how about allowing my 9 year old JR 1 race with this class, we might need to make a few wieght adjustments to even things out but it might be some competition.

By the way, my personnel opinion is the small turnout is due to the saturday races.

[mikecampbell]

Hi Doug, I was curious if you guys are going to be selling off your clutches and pipes, headers and flex's for a good price since you won't need them anymore?

[mikecampbell]

Hi David, again. It took me awhile to remember this, but SDKA used to have a class called Supersportsman. Trust me " I AM NOT REQUESTING THIS ". I have no idea how it was set up. There were many different engines and weights. It was kind of a catch all. It was a fairly large class, but so were all the rest of the classes. Anyway I hope the Superbox class keeps growing and I really hope the Formula YC class will start to grow again.

[mikecampbell]

Sorry David, I meant David.

[David Chong]

Mar 17, 2009 18:18:59 GMT -8 DBkarting said:

Since this topic is open discussion, how about allowing my 9 year old JR 1 race with this class, we might need to make a few wieght adjustments to even things out but it might be some competition.

By the way, my personnel opinion is the small turnout is due to the saturday races.

I am all for inclusion and expansion! However, I believe there are some liability concerns regarding mixing youth and senior classes. I am not an IKF rules guru, so that would be a question for someone else. As a father, I think I would be uncomfortable entering my sons in a class mixed with adults, and I would probably be pretty grumpy if an adult mistake (or overagression) led to my son wrecking or, worse, suffering injury or damage.

[David Chong]

Hi Mike,

As a general comment, I think it's desirable for our club to offer a place the widest range of karts possible, so your idea is a positive in my opinion. I have seen "Controlled" classes allowing multiple engines in a single class. Usually, they seem to be exhibition classes rather than championship classes, and since our classes are based upon the IKF I don't know that we have the option to go that route. I'm sure someone who is more familiar with the IKF Class structure can chime in. If it's possible, then after perhaps a season it would be worthwhile to review lap results in any/all "underrepresented" classes and consider weight and intake restrictions for equalization options.

It may not be an issue for the Super Sportsman class. By the end of the season I hope to have 8 or more drivers competing for the cup.

---
We may indeed sell off our Y pipes and headers. They were about $250 new, and we'd blow them out for under half price.

[DBkarting]

Respect on the track goes both ways, I'm confident he would handle himself better than I would. This most likely wouldn't happen anyway do to those type of rules but it would be fun for him. JR 1 has no turn out and he gets kind of bored. I raced with SDKA as a kid 18 to 20 years ago and it was pretty good turn out all the time, things have changed and I would love to stay here local with a club that I learned to race with but there's no way that he can get the lessons he needs to mature as a driver. Maybe they will just combine within the same race due to the close lap times and it will give him someone to chase.

[kylekuntze]

Superbox is a fine class and is a much better class for new karters then formula y/c. Formula y is for one a pain because of the wet clutch. Face it...no one actually likes working on a wet clutch. The Horstman dry clutch is built for superbox and will last easily a few races before even considering to put new discs in it. It's lighter then the wet clutch, thus lightening up the crank (cranks have bent many times from the wet clutch) and is much easier to work with and adjust. Plus the whole formula y class can be alot for someone to take in since you can adjust flex and the expense of all the components is much higher then a can. A can around 350 will probably not be much slower then formula y/c, but the powerband is much nicer and user friendly then the awkward if you're not fast enough you will burn up the clutch qualities of y.

[mikecampbell]

I've tried to stop doing this, but here I go again! David, as Superbox grows I hope you push for the Senior Sportsman class to begin again. Obviously if Sportsman, Superbox and Sumo were still choices you guys would not have began in Sumo. I hate to see a small class get split up but I do understand, and I hope it's the beginning of all the classes building up again. Once you're comfortable in any of the classes you never have to leave them if you don't want to. I have a feeling you will see the same thing in Superbox as you have dealt with in your short time in Formula YC. There will be those who want to race cheaper, faster, or at a different weight and that is why it's important that all the classes are successful.

[David Chong]

Mike, I'm glad you care enough about karting in San Diego so that you can't resist posting! Believe me when I say I know what you are going through, which is why I mentioned your name specifically at the very beginning of all this.

Growth is only a good thing. I am only a very small part of the SDKA, but I am doing everything I can to make the part I am involved in as absolutely successful as possible. I am creating a low cost senior class with a ruleset that can also be highly competitive, so that the class is attractive to both rookies and veterans alike. f I am successful in what I do, then the club as a whole will enjoy a steady influx of new drivers.

Some of these drivers will stick with the Super Sportsman class, while others will decide they want to switch to faster classes. That means every class in our club will have the potential to experience growth. We will also have some new guys who perhaps cannot make weight in the Super Sportsman class, and they will be looking towards Formula Y/C Heavy.

I want the club to grow, not just my class. I ask you to trust in the process; good things are happening. Just look at the wonderful new batch of rookies we have on the forum right now! I'm helping three guys via email find karts to purchase. I have a personal goal of helping one new person get started in karting every single SDKA race, and I believe that is achievable. It requires a willingness to donate time and treasure, a willingness to reach out, and the discipline to constantly evaluate and refine our product so that we remain positioned as the sickest way to spend a Saturday in San Diego!

And that is the long, long answer to your central question, Mike: yes, because of that constant evaluation I am commited to, if it turned out that running a mixed class would be beneficial to all, we would explore a special club class.

Cheers,
David

[mikecampbell]

Hi Kyle, you still owe me my hose clamp. You're right, those running the wet clutch probably don't "like" to deal with it, it's been discussed for years but it's just what we do. What we do like about it is the opportunity to adjust it and try to get that little extra if we think it's needed. The wet clutch also can go many races before needing new disc's, you know that, but there is the cost of the coolant, it's a little more work and it's messier. If the Formula YC class is able to continue I'd like to address the clutch issue with others that do, and have, run this class and would like your input on a dry clutch that would be adjustable and suit the weight and pipe. As for a beginners class, this is a great one if your close to the weight. What David is doing will give people a choice. The speeds are close and the work is about the same between the two classes. All we need is a few more full size folks to keep Formula YC going.