Which has less wrenching?

[Guest]

HI All,

I've read other's threads and a lot sound like mine. My son has shown exceptional talent in the indoor karting arena and wants to move up the ranks to the real thing. The problem is the indoor karting is pretty much arrive and drive where outdoor karting is not.

I'm not really mechanically inclined and want to get him into something with minimal set up and wrenching. After extensive research, it looks like a Rotax Jr. is the way to go but there is no local class for that. HPV2 appears to be an older type of set up with more wrenching. Is that correct or am I off base? Any insite would be helpful. Thank you.

[kbates20]

hpv 2 is probally the best choice....the horstman(hpv) motor requires very low maitnence and tuning....all karts require some tuning to be fast....plus with the hpv motor whens he is 16 u can just change the pipe to hpv3 and u dont have to buy a whole new motor...plus the hpv class is a drivers skill class

[Guest]

All good points, but the Rotax engine can go 50 hours before a refresh. Just to play devils advocate a little bit more, the Rotax Jr. chassis is a full size chassis, after 16 years of age, you change an air inlet an other thing and you can race it in a senior/adult class.

THe other pro with the Rotax is that it's a sealed engine so it doesn't come down to the person with the biggest wallet who can blue print every so often. These are the things I need to focus on before making a decision.

Thanks and keep the input coming.

[kbates20]

true , but you have more wrenching to do with a rotax, you have to do cooling vs. the hpv thats air cooled....plus if your son is just starting the rotax is alot more power....the hpv 2 class is a big class and will give him alot of challenge..sdka doesnt run a jr. rotax class also...good luck and i hope you guy come into the sport

[Guest]

Most hpv 2 drivers run senior chassis as well...

as for the run time on engines, hpv has just as much logetivity as a rotax or more. hpv is definatly less expensive and less complicated to deal with.

plus he can race hpv-2 at sdka lakc tri-c socal-sprinters...etc (all semi-loca) there is a good amount of jr rotax drivers but it is mainly with gatorz series.

[Guest]

Dec 27, 2008 0:04:48 GMT -8 @Guest said:

Most hpv 2 drivers run senior chassis as well...

as for the run time on engines, hpv has just as much logetivity as a rotax or more. hpv is definatly less expensive and less complicated to deal with.

plus he can race hpv-2 at sdka lakc tri-c socal-sprinters...etc (all semi-loca) there is a good amount of jr rotax drivers but it is mainly with gatorz series.

oh and also you can win races without blueprinting your engine. its really not that great of a difference with hpv (though some may differ and go on and on and on)
and at first dont expect your son to win any races nor run up front because he will just be learning. but when he gets a hang of it he should keep up easy in sdka

[Jeff Shadoan]

Having driven and worked on everything including Yamaha KT100, HPV, Rotax, Leopard and Honda CR125 I can say that HPV definitely requires the least amount of wrenching and maintenance.

Don't get me wrong. I really like the Rotax and raced one for a season and a half before making the jump into shifters midway through this season. However, Rotax motors can be finicky and definitely require more wrenching than an HPV.

There is almost nothing to do on an HPV. Set the carb needles and periodically check the exhaust flex, fuel filter and air filter.
HPV is a relatively bulletproof motor and clutch. You can go a season between top-end rebuilds and a couple seasons between bottom-end rebuilds (depending on the number of hours put on the motor in a season).

With a Rotax you have the following things that require frequent to daily attention:
- battery needs to be charged before every track day (a spare is almost a necessity)
- carburetor main jet needs to be changed depending on changing atmospheric conditions (too rich and the motor runs bad; too lean can be detrimental for the motor)
- for the jetting you'll need jetting software or somebody else at the track who can provide you with the correct jetting
- exhaust valve needs to be maintained
- exhaust silencer packing and stinger should be replaced every 10 hours or so (when the packing goes bad or the stinger breaks the motor will run very poorly)
- the clutch is a definite weak point on the Rotax (unless you buy a new motor with the new style clutch or upgrade an older motor to the new style clutch)

HPV-2 also uses a full size chassis. The only difference (just like Rotax Jr.) is the size of the rear wheels and tires. At 16 years of age you just change the exhaust pipe to a 3 or 4 and change the needle settings to run either HPV-3 or HPV-4 (senior classes). The only other change is the rear wheels and tires (same as Rotax Jr.).

Again, this is not to be taken as a put down on Rotax (I still own one and think it is a great package and concept). But if simplicity is important then you can't do any better than an HPV.

The other advantage to HPV is the number of places and opportunities to race. HPV-2, HPV-3 and/or HPV-4 are offered by all the Southern CA clubs.

Jeff Shadoan
SDKA, V.P.

[Guest]

Wow. Okay guys, thank you for opening my eyes. From the sound of it, it appeared the Rotax was a definite place to start for a newbie. I was wrong.

Time to look at HPV2 more carefully. Thanks.

A few more questions. What is a used HPV2 kart set up run? appx.

To run up front, it is necessary to change chassis every year? This is the impression I get from talking to people regardless of engine package.

[guest]

from my own experience hpv2 has always been and always will be he with the deepest pokets will always come out on top.
Depending on which motor builder you go with and how much the builder is willing to test the rules for you will decide if you run up front or not. A motor from one of the so called builders will run you in the neighborhood of 2000 to 3000 dollars. Then about a thousand or so every 3 to 4 races. As far as maintence the clutch will need to be checked every race and possibly replaced, not cheap. The carburetor needs to be gone through every race no question. Biggest problem with hpv the motor is (spec). Parts can only be bought hpv. If your plan is to just go out and have fun not be to competative then fine thats how we all start, but after that first race better start looking for that builder thats willing to go the extra mile for you.

[guest]

The experience at an indoor track (K1, Miramar, etc.) is substantially different from that found on an outdoor track. Booming down the straits at 70 to 80 mph on an asphalt track is an expereince that you will never duplicate on the indoor circuits. And doing it in a competitive race with other drivers in front, behind, and all around you increases the intensity exponentially.

Before you pour large amounts of money into a kart, you should take your prospective driver up to Apex or Adams for a Saturday "arrive and drive" session, and give him the true experience to be sure.

HTH

[HPV]

Dec 27, 2008 10:22:22 GMT -8 @guest said:

1. the deepest pokets will always come out on top.

2. A motor from one of the so called builders will run you in the neighborhood of 2000 to 3000 dollars.

3. Then about a thousand or so every 3 to 4 races.

4. As far as maintence the clutch will need to be checked every race and possibly replaced, not cheap.

5. The carburetor needs to be gone through every race no question.

6.Biggest problem with hpv the motor is (spec). Parts can only be bought hpv.

My reply:
1. remember, he is not talking about racing nationally
2.you can get a good/fast used hpv for under $2000
3.there is no way i would have raced hpv if i had to pay a thousand every 3-4 races. I get it rebuilt once a year and thats about $550.
4. clutch rarely has to be replaced, only minor maintanence such as replaceing the friction plate (inexpensive)
5.the carb should be cleaned with carb cleaner each race and rebuilt($9 kit) every 2-4 races.
6.from my 2 years in karting, all the local places support and stock some hpv parts.... 2wildkarting, fxracing, go-karting, hi-rev engines, p1 engines, nash karting etc....(couldnt think of everything) and hpv parts are very easy to obtain

[guest]

Let me say HPV 2 is definitely one of the least expensive classes to run. You will always have someone to outspend you, this is a great thing. Try to improve and beat the guy with the most bucks!! It won't be easy, and it may not happen, but when you enter this you have to understand there are drivers that have lots of experience that you will contend with. This is great fun. Being the new guy is not easy, everyone started there. If you think this is something you would like to get into, you will kick yourself if you don't.

[Guest]

Okay, so points have been made on both sides of the Rotax vs. HPV debate.

Which of these 2 classes is more of the "driver matters more" class?

I'm loving this as it is educating me more than you know!!! ;D

[guest]

One quick answer would be to look at the 2008 race results. I think in any class the better drivers finish up front. Experience is certainly part of being a better driver. Not only driving experience, but kart setup too. Both come with time. It won't take long to see who your closest competitors are and then just work to finish ahead of them. Lots of HPV 2, not lots of junior rotax.

[jorge cevallos]

if you would like to try out an hpv-2 I have 2 karts that are very fast that i would rent at an affordable price and i can provide everything including all the maintenance to get you guys started. just show up and drive.

feel free to give me a call at 619-890-3557
or email at [e-mail]

[dougring]

Dear "Guest" -

As a former HPV driver (2000-2003), let me give you my opinion on some of the "answers" that HPV Guest provided:

* Deepest pockets = front runner: In my opinion, probably one of the biggest fallacies in kart racing - particularly in closely controlled motor classes like HPV and TAG/Rotax. For the new karter, do not bother to pay for a "special" or blueprinted motor, at least until you have a good handle on race-craft, motor tuning, and you are running towards the front of the pack.

I would suggest buying a good used HPV - should be available for under $900 - and then have the top end serviced after two or three races, just so a motor builder can disassemble and look at everything.

* For club racing, I always had the top end serviced every 10 running hours (about half a season), cost ~$300 with dyno break-in. In the winter, I had the top and bottom end services, cost ~$500 with dyno break-in. Call Nash's Karting, Flemming Motorsports, or Pitts Performance and they will give you ballpark figures for top end and full motor services.

* The clutch is very reliable - the benefit of it being a "lock up" design, not a full slipper clutch. I used to replace the friction disk every 4th or 5th race, and the drive basket and springs every 10th or so race. Newer chains (i.e., the o-ring chains) should extend these maintenance intervals a bit.

In my four years with the HPV-3 and HPV-4, I never had a significant clutch failure - just normal service and repair.

* Parts are spec and all come through the US Importer, RLV. Every major kart shop in the US carries HPV parts, and all are equal and will be roughly the same cost. If you are concerned about parts cost, compare similar parts from the HPV versus the Rotax - you will quickly see that the HPV will be much less expensive to purchase and maintain. The motor is also much simpler (mechanically) and easier to work on.

I'm a big supporter of the HPV motor, because the costs are reasonable (compared to it's main competition, the Yamaha KT-100) and the parts quality is much, much better than the KT100. The HPV-2 class has a long and deep history in SoCal, and has always been one of our largest classes. Your son will be racing with the full spectrum of drivers, from first-year karters to regional-quality racers, and this is exactly what you want as a new racing family - you should always have someone to race with and learn from.

Thanks,
Doug Ring -TAG Sr. #8
(opinions are my own, and do not represent the board of the SDKA)

[kbates20]

everyone says that hpv the deepest pocket is the front rnner, not true, i am probally the poorest guy out there and i have one a couple....